Some weird verses about dead people
Once I get started on a train of thought, it can be a bit difficult to derail myself—that is, when it's not far too easy. My post on ‘Praying to dead people for help’ is the latest train to bury itself on a track at the back of my mind.
The whole question of what happens in that time between when we die and when the Lord returns in judgement is not really clearly addressed in Scripture. Paul speaks of dead saints as being “asleep” in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 (cf. Mark 5:39). This may be picture language, however, given that Revelation 6:10 has at least some saints crying out to God for vengeance. So if you pressed me to say more, I would be more than happy to remain with the view that death is a one way street, and that's that.
However, even that somewhat comforting view is uncomfortably overturned by certain verses in 1 Samuel 28 where Saul stupidly decides to seek help from the dead prophet Samuel—and this in defiance of his own edict against necromancy (which basically means seeking help from the dead). Why is his action so stupid? Is it because it doesn't work? That is, can what he does be grouped in a grab-bag with other ineffectual silliness—like newspaper horoscopes, water divining, homeopathy, and trying to think of a list of stupid things without offending people? No, not at all. It's stupid because it works. Read on:
And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has turned from you and become your enemy? The Lord has done to you as he spoke by me, for the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. Moreover, the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The Lord will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.”
My reading of these verses is that Samuel really is present here. Neither the narrator, Samuel himself or Saul seem to be under any doubt that it is Samuel who is speaking. And as the story unfolds, it's only too clear that Samuel's words of prophecy come true, with the result that Saul is defeated, and his worst fears come true: David becomes king of Israel.
It's fascinating to note that Samuel's words of prophecy are, in their effect, no different to the words that Samuel spoke when he was alive (cf. the rest of 1 Samuel). What we see in the encounter with the dead Samuel is no different from the narrator's summary of the situation way back in 1 Samuel 3:19-20—that “And Samuel grew, and the Lord was with him and let none of his words fall to the ground. And all Israel from Dan to Beersheba knew that Samuel was established as a prophet of the Lord.” So not only was Saul's action in calling up Samuel stupid, it was also rather pointless: why expect him to change his mind at this late stage?
(Incidentally, the idea that he has been ‘disturbed’ (v. 16) is consistent both with the idea that those who have died in Christ are sleeping (as Paul said), or that, like some other saints, Samuel was busy with another task—that of praying for divine judgement (as John pictured it in Revelation). So this particular story still doesn't help us to know exactly what our experience is like when we die before the Lord returns.)
So in this matter of seeking help from dead saints, and other speculations about the current state of dead people (such as, for example, the doctrine of purgatory), we are led to a simple conclusion: where Bible writers fears to tread, the Roman Catholic church is unwise to rush in. Prayer to dead saints—especially grumpy ones like Samuel—is most definitely off the recommended list.
“where Bible writers fears to tread, the Roman Catholic church is unwise to rush in.”
I suppose we could easily replace “Roman Catholic church” in that sentence to any one or any group, if indeed we are to acknowledge “Sola Scriptura” in matters of faith.
Other than that, although I am still finding hard to think that it was really Samuel that was invoked, your explanation on those verses makes a whole lot of sense to me. Whether Samuel was really present then and there or not, one thing clear to me is that the word of God was present through that unlikely mean, and was effective.
Tim,
I think your first para hits the nail on the head, if I have understood it correctly.
My understanding is that the Scriptures, as orginally given, are infallible and the supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct. I understand that therefore there are some things that the bible doesn’t address completely and it is pointless trying to get it to do what it isn’t supposed to do.
It seems to me that this issue does not fall into the scope of “faith and conduct”.
Have I missed the point?
Bummer.
I was under the assumption that to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. [2 Corinthians 5:8]
Would people in the presence of Christ be able to sleep? [I know the disciples did pre-cross, resurrection and Pentecost, but after?]
I don’t know if we will sleep when we arrive, David. Too much light!
Greg,
That first paragraph of mine was more of a passing comment, as to remind myself (and others I suppose) to be careful when dealing with issues like this one. We’re all susceptible to the error of making hard lines on the issues that the Bible does not.
Nevertheless, I don’t think thinking about this issue is always pointless. Although the Bible doesn’t give us a crystal clear picture of what happens during the time of death and the time of Lord’s return, nevertheless, it does address it to some degree. It is the Biblically-thorough thinking that will help guard us from making such errors like Roman Catholics, or some other “evangelicals” who have made up their minds up on this issue too strongly one way or the other.
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