Thanks for the post Lionel - a great answer to an issue which almost every young person in our culture will have to deal with on a weekly basis.  I especially apprectiated the biblical-theological manner in which you dealt with the question - not just looking towards the commands which the NT issues, but showing how these are the natural outcome of the teaching of the scriptures regarding responsibility.

However, within this framework, I was surprised to read that “It’s kind of ‘okay’ for people with a hopeless life, who are destined for judgment and destruction, to get drunk; after all, they have no real responsibility”.  Of course it’s understandable that non-Christians get drunk - they are demonstrating their true nature as those enslaved to sinful desires.  But I can’t see how that it makes it in anyway ‘kind of ‘okay’‘?

It seems from the Isaiah reference that in the light of the immanent judgment that the response should not be abandon and drunkeness, but repentence (Isa 22:12).  In the case of the Corinthians, while lack of hope is clearly present (15:32), the reason for drunkeness is not judgment, but the perceived lack of it (‘if the dead are not raised…’).  More fundamentally within the BT framework, all humans as creatures within God’s world have the responsibility to care for it (not just those whom God has already redeemed) - a responsibility which you helpfully showed was compromised by drunkeness.  But wouldn’t that mean that all should avoid drunkeness, even if it is understandable why some don’t?

Dan I take it that its more about empathy for the hopeless who get drunk than endorsement of it.

I’m sure Lionel would agree that drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1 cor 6:10) , like all sinners there must be genuine repentance - a taking of reponsibility which must imply self control.

I would love to hear more on absolutising abstinence out of the kind of principles you have argued here. it seems very easy to move into a culture where drinking (not drunkenness) is avoided at all costs. We can easily begin to look down on anyone with a beer in their as week and ill disciplined and unspiritual. And the yeast of the pharisees spreads.

I love Luthers comment

” I opposed indulgences and all the papists, but never with force. I simply preached, and wrote God’s Word; otherwise I did nothing. And while I slept, or drank Wittenberg beer with my friends Philip and Amsdorf, the Word so greatly weakened the papacy that no prince or emperor ever inflicted such losses upon it. I did nothing; the Word did everything. (LW 51:77).

In my observation (as a 20 year old guy), drinking to excess is the single biggest issue facing Christians transitioning from teenhood into adulthood. I would say it is the one thing which drags more people away from church than anything else - especially young Christian men.

I like Lionel’s post here because you show how drunkeness is not only sinful but wrecks life.

I think it is an issue which needs regular airplay in the pulpit. It would also be great if Matthias Media put out a DVD series on this for Bible studies.

Hi Lionel,
Of late I have heard a Christian leader whom I greatly respect as a faithful Bible teacher encouraging abstinence from all forms of alcohol consumption (while still confirming that it’s not a sin, and is a gift from God).

Do you think there is a danger of an overemphasis on abstinence at the cost of receiving God’s good gift with thanksgiving? If we encourage complete abstinence amongst our congregation (as opposed to [for lack of a better term] contextual abstinence such as for legal reasons such as underage drinking/DUI and instances where you are causing a brother to stumble such as drinking in front of a known alcoholic) are we straying from God’s word?

I have also heard abstinance encouraged recently - but mostly as a social critique. That is because it is seen by many as one of the biggest issue facing people today, if we don’t drink we will be in stark contrast and show that drunkeness is bad.

While I do see some value in this, I think that it could also have a number of negative implication including those that you have mentioned Izaac.

I am inlcined to think that Christians need to be challenged to think about their attitude to alcohol and to thing through how they can best glorify God in the way they drink or not drink in each context. A blanket policy is often unhelpful, but a godly understanding of the importance of the way we live is essential.

Thanks Lionel, Kester and Shane,

Further questions are raised in my mind in response to your answers.

1. Is 1 Cor 8-10 best to be taken as speaking to a societal context or that of an individual? Are we limiting our freedom for the sake of someone who would be aware or witnessing an action (so I won’t knowingly offer wine to a person that is compelled by conscience not to drink, or likewise a person with a known alcohol problem) or rather because society has a problem we should abstain for the benefits of some person I may be possibly offending or harming, whom I don’t know somewhere ‘out there’?

2. If it is wise to abstain in a society where there is such a thing as drunkenness are we at risk of portraying Jesus as unwise? I’ve been informed that 1st century Israel was quite a controlled society, but there was at the very least a word for drunk, drunkenness and drunkard, so there was at least some issue with excessive alcohol consumption. Should Jesus have more wisely have turned the water into ‘Maison’?

There is some wisdom in the historical position of evangelicals when seeing something done incorrectly to do the opposite. E.g. In seeing money spoken of unbiblically, we just don’t talk about money. Rather is there greater wisdom by instead doing it rightly?

Hi Shane - I agree with pretty much everything you said except for your rather unsympathetic reading of my position

I’m quite comfortable to accept the possibility of there being no common policy on matters of freedom, especially in this one where the “policy” itself relies quite heavily on each teacher’s reading of the prevailing Aussie culture and what’s best in possibly different situations.

Thanks for the plug for Pub Church!

We’re always on tricky ground with any subject like this. My thinking wants to hold up Christian freedom and responsibility at the same time.

Shane asks the right question: where do we move from position to policy? I would say that we tell our youngg Christians (those that Lionel was originally addressing) that they are free to drink but that God in Scripture calls them to moderation.

But we also remind them they are under an obligation of love to submit their own freedom for the sake of their weaker brothers.

So the question is not so much “what is permitted” (so similar to the “how far can I go?” question) but “what is most beneficial for my godliness and that of those around me?”

That, I suggest, takes discernment and submission which is what we are, ultimately, seeking to teach those in our charge.