Dr Piper makes an error saying God is God-centred. God is relationship centred, the Cross being the ultimate evidence of God doing it all to allow us, made in His image, to re-engage with Him in the best way possible this side of the Second Coming (or our death, whichever comes first).

This relational aspect of God is further supported by the Trinity, where especially the Father - Son relationship is depicted to us in the Gospel. And the person of the Holy Spirit is the one we as Christians have living in us now, interpreting for us God’s Word, bestowing upon us spiritual gifts for service to the Church and interceding for us when we know not what to pray.

Certainly an outworking of our relationship with Christ is obedience to God and glorification of Him. However, the Cross is God’s ultimate glorification, showing the foolishness of mankind’s attempts to “be right with God”.  Through Jesus’ Spirit working in them, Christians should be the lens that directs all wordly ideas to the God reality of Jesus Christ, God’s Son crucified and risen, and therefore the salvation message we all need to hear, including as Tony highlighted, the reality of judgment.

Tony, I agree that in that set of theses, it does feel a little like the proclamation of the reality that Jesus Christ as Lord is not quite the central and integrating key that it should be.

Obviously preaching Christ and his atoning death and its justifying effect is central to so much of what Piper writes and preaches.

But when you present a series of theses - this implies that you are systematically advancing what is central to you - so the gospel of the Lord Jesus seems perhaps a little marginal in this sort of expression.

So it would be worth noting that the Lord Jesus himself taught that all the OT Scriptures climaxed in him (Luke 24:25-27, 44-47).

Also Piper rightly alludes to the theme of glory in John’s Gospel. But it could have been made even clearer than it was that the glorification of God (the Father) is tied up intimately to the glorifying of the Son. So for example, he cites John 12:28 speaking of God glorifying his own name. But he does not note that in the context of v23, we are talking about the hour of the glorification of the Son, in his death like grain of wheat.

In fact as the list of verses that follows indicates, glory in John’s Gospel is strongly focussed on the Son.

John 8:54 ~ Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

John 13:32 ~ If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.

John 17:1 ~ After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.”

John 17:5 ~ And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

I find 2 Thessalonians 1:12 to be an astonishing verse on this topic…

We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

We are to be caught up in the glorification of the name of the Son - our Lord Jesus.

P.S. It would be worth noting (for those who don’t check the original source you linked to) that Piper delivered this paper at a meeting of ETS - the Evangelical Theological Society - and asked to be critiqued… along the lines of iron sharpening iron I guess. So I presume your critique is legitimately offered and would be quite welcome.

I agree with you, Tony, that the gospel message you have articulated more faithfully reflects the apostolic gospel than Piper’s message.  I always feel a bit uncomfortable when I hear Piper speak about God’s love for his own glory.  God is love because God is triune, existing as a community of persons, Father, Son and Spirit. 

I wonder in Piper’s theology if there is any room for a “humble” God whose glory is to serve.  For not only did the Son serve undeserving sinners such as us, but he served his Father in love as well.  This service and love of one another is inherent in the trinity, is it not? 

But even if I am misreading Piper’s theology, your articulation of the gospel is faithful to the apostles, and I am not sure that Piper’s is.

Hi Tony, YES, you are being unfair. Listen to some of the hundreds of sermons he has preached over the last 25+ years, or perhaps read some of his many books, and you’ll be left in no doubt as to the place that Christ has in his life, his ministry, his writing and his preaching. Trevor

In his preaching, which I often listen to here in Korea, I always get the impression that Piper wants people to obey God and give Him glory because he IS Lord.

I don’t think it’s unfair, if anything it’s too generous.  I’ve read a few books by Piper and the huge problem with these seven theses as stated is that you can be an Arian and still affirm them.  Not only is the deity and Lordship of Christ not clearly articulated in these seven points or how Christ saves us from sin, there is no mention of the Spirit whatsoever.  Yet, as others have noted, it is the trinitarian nature of Yahweh that makes these theses theoretically unique. Since “God” is a vague term consider how drastically different the theses look if you substitute another concept of God in place of what Piper has outlined. You’ll see that Christ is not prominent enough in these, which is pretty disappointing considering it’s Piper.

I’ve listened to a number of Dr Piper’s talks and it seems that subliminally it’s the glory of Jesus that makes Him lord and all worthy of honour, praise, and obedience.  Just because he hasn’t mentioned lordship explicitly in his theses doesn’t mean it’s not on his heart or in his teaching.  I just means he hasn’t explicitly mentioned it!

Tony, what about these verses:

” 20But in factChrist has been raised from the dead,the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death,by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.” 1 Cor 15:20-28

I haven’t studied these verses in depth, but it seems to me that they’re saying that Christ’s ultimate goal is to hand the glory he receives back to the Father. He becomes Lord, and is glorified by all creation, and then he hands this lordship and glory over to God the Father. So yes, the central gospel message is that Jesus is Saviour and Lord - but the goal of preaching the gospel is that Jesus, and ultimately the Father, are glorified. But I could be misinterpreting these verses. What do you think? How do these verses fit into your summary of the central message we are called to preach?

(All this being said, I love Piper and have read many of his books, but I do agree with you that he seems to over-emphasise some aspects of theology at the expense of others. I go to Piper for his breath-takingly enormous view of God and the gospel, his encouragement to a passionate and joy-filled Christian life, and because I think his strengths are often our weaknesses in Australian reformed evangelicalism. But I go to Packer and Carson for a more well rounded theological perspective, wisely applied to Christian experience.)

Yes, I think that’s fair. And yes, I agree that the central gospel message - the thing we preach - is Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Graham Goldsworthy has done us a great service in showing us how every part of the Bible can be preached with Christ at its centre.

What concerns me occasionally, though, is that we can jump too quickly to Jesus when we teach the Bible. Christ should be the centre, fulfilment and high point of all our teaching. But I remember one talk in particular on the Old Testament law. It was a wonderful talk, part of a wonderful series in which Christ was definitely central. But because the preacher didn’t speak much about Jesus in this particular talk - his emphasis was on God and his character - he was criticised. It concerns me that sometimes we are so busy ticking the “yes, I’ve mentioned how Jesus fulfils this part of Scripture” box, that we don’t preach the whole council of God, including his character and glory. I think we have a lot to learn from the Puritans, and Piper, who’s been deeply influenced by the Puritans, at this point.

But I think I’ve strayed from your main point! When I re-read Piper’s summary, it seems to me he’s focussing on the <i>goal</i> of the gospel not the <i>message</i>  of the gospel, as you said. He’s right about the goal, and he’s right to preach it. He’s right to emphasise it in a context where it’s not emphasised enough, in a world where God has been made so small. But you’d hope that a summary of our central message would be more obviously Christ-centred. “We preach Christ crucified” (1 Cor 1:23) – now there’s a good gospel summary!

As well as Jesus (gospel) being central to the glory of God now, it seems that from the glimpses of heaven recorded in the book of Revelation we see the slain lamb (gospel) is still central to glory in heaven.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. (Revelation 1)

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” (Revelation 5)

And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” (Rev 5)

...and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (Rev 21)

Di