Sandy

Thanks for your reflections on WYD.

I’m glad you linked to Mark Gilbert’s postings too. They make very sobering reading - not so much for his reflections on WYD events (which as you say were generous and discerning), but for the description of his many conversations with Roman Catholics during the week. Mark spent the whole week having evangelistic conversation after evangelistic conversation, and he has my utmost respect not just for the love he showed to those people and the gentleness and respect with which he talked to them, but also for his physical endurance to keep at it for so many hours a day over the week.

It’s also worth mentioning the Certainty web site.  Opportunitites for conversation with Catholic friends will contine for a while, and this is a great site to refer them to.

Sandy
Here’s a question designed to get you into trouble… If you had to give the speech that Rob Forsyth gave to the Pope, would you have welcomed him “as a fellow Christian brother”?

Ian, would I welcome the Pope as a “fellow Christian brother”?

The answer is that it all depends. For example, it depends on what I know of the Pope’s personal beliefs - and that might come from at least two sources: his published writings, and personal knowledge.

And it depends on the context. What is the occasion where it’s happening. Whom am I representing? What might I convery

I can understand caution about using those terms - it could be seen to endorse the Pope’s teaching and role. Of course, Robert Forsyth made it very clear he did not accept either his role as spiritual head of the Church nor all the doctrines of his Church.  Some media clearly felt his comments contained a rebuke as well as a formal welcome.

I can also understand that I ought to be cautious in claiming I can determine that he is definitely not a brother in Christ and so refusing the call him a brother.

People make distinctions between false teaching and outright heresy and sub-Christian and so on. And on a Thursday afternoon my brain is not working well enough to expound the nuances.

I am more ready to speak firmly about how official Catholic doctrine undermines the biblical gospel of grace, than I am to make a personal judgment on the Pope.

Presumably, the Pope recites and believes the Apostles and Nicene Creeds. So he declares his trust in Christ as our only Lord. In my opinion, his teachings of official RC doctrine certainly appear to undermine this. But despite this, it certainly appears to me that some Roman Catholics trust in Christ and try very much to keep to focus on Christ and his atoning death.

One last bit of this musings. I notice that Paul did not hesitate in his opening greetings and throughout his epsitles to address the members of the various churches he wrote to collectively as “saints” (e.g. 1 Cor 1:2)  and “brothers”  (e.g. 1 Cor 3:1, Gal 1:11), even though some of these churches were rent by division and false teaching and practice so serious as to be denial of the the gospel (Gal 1:6 etc).

Presumably some of those addressed by Paul as brothers were in the wrong in these matters, and not just as followers, but very likely in some cases, as teachers.

Perhaps I might find another form of words if I was asked to welcome the Pope. But I would not mind treating him with courtesy and respect he clearly deserves in his role. I believe in freedom of religious expression, after all.

Thanks for furthering the discussion Joshua.

Perhaps the merciful thing to do is to assume someone is not a Christian brother, until you discover otherwise. So, contrary to Sandy, only if I had personal knowledge of someone’s saving faith would I call them a Christian brother or sister - rather than referring to them in that way simply because I have no evidence that they don’t have that faith. As Joshua suggests, I think this prima facie assumption that the Pope does not have a saving faith is only reinforced by his position as Pope. “Is the Pope a Catholic?” is genuinely assumed to be a rhetorical question, and, whilst some Catholics may be Christians, Catholicism is not Christian.

So if I was put on the spot and asked “Do you think the Pope is a Christian brother?” at a press conference, well maybe generosity and diplomacy comes into play, and I’d try to find some wording that does not come across as condemnatory. But to offer a welcome to someone as a Christian brother, when that is not even an issue, maybe isn’t wise.

Having said all that, maybe I don’t know all the circumstances of the speech Rob gave, and maybe Rob didn’t mean for us to read “Christian brother” as a technical term to mean “one with an Apostolic saving faith in the full and sufficient sacrifice of Christ for the atonement of sins”. Maybe all Rob meant was “I welcome you as a fellow follower of Christ.” I think we can safely assume the Pope genuinely thinks he is following Christ - even if we think he is getting it wrong.

Maybe it’s all semantics. But words are important. If we don’t watch ourselves, we’ll end up using the sort of weasel words that seem to be coming out of Lambeth.

Warren,

You might be mixing up the issues I think. It’s not about the state of Joseph Ratzinger’s heart, as an individual, nor indeed about how well each of us ‘walks the walk’—that, as you say, will be judged by God. But as Pope Benedict XVI, what the Pope stands for and teaches and represents is most definitely NOT the same trust in Jesus as you and I have, WD. It’s not in Jesus ALONE for a start.

This is the problem with public support and affirmation for the Pope as Pope. We cannot treat him publicly as a brother, as if the differences between us in the end do not impede our fellowship. The differences are too central—about matters of salvation—to be glossed over. And when they are, it is unhelpful and confusing for everyday evangelicals (and the Roman Catholics they are seeking to tell the gospel to).

TP

Tony,

I’d humbly endorse a recent book that I bought from Dymocks called “The Essential Writings of Pope Benedict XVI” or something like that. The guy is an amazing thinker and an amazing Christian. The clarity with which he discusses Protestant stumbling blocks to Roman Catholicism with respect to different issues is quite impressive. You may be surprised by what you read - I know I was.