Claire
I’ve pondered for a couple of days as how to respond to your piece on Mary.  Putting forth the biblical and historical case for the ‘Catholic Mary’ was, of course, my first reaction.  Coupled with that was a desire to set the record straight on debunking the commonheld myths that most evangelicals have about the teachings on Mary that the Catholic Church profess.  However, I wish to only say a couple of things that may lead you to ponder further the role of Mary in your own life and Mary as Mother, not sister.

In reading your article it is obvious that you object to the role of Mary as ‘intercessor’, which, you say, leads to a usurping of the role of Christ as the one mediator between God and man. 

I think when we look at scripture closely, God uses all sorts of ‘things’ to confer His grace on us.  Angels, men and matter.  Yet, as an evangelical you would have no objection to angels interceding as they do in scripture; or man to man interceding as they do in scripture; or the use of matter in obtaining grace, as it is in scripture.  Yet in all these things, we still recognise that God is the master of all.

In scripture we have an obvious occasion when Mary intercedes for the people.  The scene is the Wedding at Cana, where, as most protestants tell me, Jesus rebukes His mother for interfering thus confirming she was a sinner.  That may be the case (although that is a debate on its own), the fact is that Jesus proceeds to do as His mother asks.  A point I have seen no protestant make in their use of the text against the CCs teaching on Mary.

Nestorius denied that Mary was the mother of God - claiming that Mary was Mother to Jesus’ human nature only not His divine.  So the Council of Ephesus put to rest the heresy and proclaimed her the ‘Theotokos’ ie the Mother of God.

Jesus left Mary to John as his mother and so He leaves her to us all.  May the Theotokos continue to intercede for all Christian people so that we may know Him more so that we may love Him more.  As she told the wedding guests “Do whatever He tells you!”.
Kind regards
Donna

Thanks Claire for your thoughtful response.  I acknowledge your attempt to credit Mary as only God would.  This too is what the CC also teaches - although it would seem from a protestant perspective that we give too much credit, perhaps where it is not due.  I must point out that we believe Mary is a creature, not divine.  All she has is given her by God.  She is not to be worshipped.  What we give her is honour not adoration.  Hope the following helps a little in understanding the Catholic biblical perspective.

The Saints in Heaven are not dead but are more alive in Christ than we are.  Matt 22:31-32; Mark 12:26-27 tells us that God is the God of the living not the dead, mentioning the OT fathers.

Rev 5:8 we see an example of the elders presenting to God the prayers of the saints.  This is intercession.  Rev 6:9-11 - we see the saints gone before us praying on our behalf.

Matt 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 we see the transfiguration.  These ‘deceased’ fellows (Elijah and Moses) were conversing with Jesus, Peter, James and John.  This indicates the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our earthly limitations.  Peter’s response indicates the great honour he had for these fathers in the faith.

Matt 26:53 - Jesus himself calls upon the assistance of 12 legions of angels.  If we are to be like angels (Matt 22:30) then saints in heaven must be capable of coming to the assistance of us just like the angels did for Jesus.  Jesus was not committing idolatry because He didn’t go straight to God, but He used part of His heavenly family to comfort Him.  We are partakers of the divine life, not bystanders.  If we are to imitate Jesus, then we too can call upon their aid.

Matt 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 - the people believed Jesus was calling upon Elijah.  Although He was not, this does indicate that the Jews believed in intercessory prayer.  No-one rebuked Jesus for conjuring up spirits.

Hebrews 12 speaks of the ‘cloud of witnesses’ that surround us.  Notice in Chp 11 the writer of Hebrews speaks about the OT heroes, then proceeds to say, “therefore, since we are surrounded…...”.  If our only witness is through Christ, then why do we have these souls witnessing for us?

This, of course, is not an exhaustive exegetical response to your objection, however, I hope you can see that scripture is not opposed to the idea of the intercession of the saints and in fact supports it.

Regards
Donna

Claire
I’ll address a couple of your points and also leave it at that.

1.  The transfiguration demonstrates that those in heaven are able to communicate.  A point that protestants deny by claiming that the saints in heaven are dead.  The question needs to be asked and pondered - why did those OT saints have to appear in the first place and what benefit was it for Peter & co?  The transfiguration clearly demonstrates that the communion of saints consists of those on earth and those in heaven - all being members of the body of Christ.

Whether Peter was impulsive or not is not the point.  He was not rebuked by Jesus because he wanted to honour them.  This was an ordinary and common thing for a Jew to do.  We cannot say to Catholics that their honour given to the Saints is unbiblical, when clearly Jesus had no problem with it.

2.  Sure, Jesus did not use 12 legions of angels, but look at the number of times angels come to the aid and assistance of people. Jesus certainly would not have mentioned it if He thought it inappropriate.  Heb1:14 tells us that angels are ministering spirits sent forth to serve.

In Matt 27:52-53 we see that the tombs of the saints were opened and they appeared to many. 

3.  My point about us being like angels is to demonstrate that if angels can intercede for us as heavenly beings then the saints in heaven should also be able to intercede for us.

4.  Back to Hebrews and the ‘cloud of witness’.  If, as you say, that these witnesses will testify for us in the courtroom of life, then surely that is a type of intercession.  If I take 1Tim 2:5 to the conclusion that you suggest I should, then we don’t even need this cloud of witness, because Jesus can do it for us.  More so, we should not ask anyone on earth to pray for us because we can go straight to Jesus and that we would be denying the truth of 1Tim2:5 (according to reformed theology).

5.  Rev 6 does not refer to prayers for themselves.  If you read on you will see they are referring to the saints on earth.  When in heaven there is absolutely no need to pray for yourself because you have made it!  However, they can pray for those who are still fighting the good fight. 

You are right to suggest that Rev 5:8 is a scene of heavenly worship.  The early church fathers have some interesting things to say about this mysterious book.  I don’t think you can deny that the elders (whoever they are) are presenting the prayers of the saints to the throne of God (intercession).  I don’t think this is at the end of time as time does not exist in heaven, nor does the text allow for that interpretation.  Verse 13 says…every creature in heaven and on earth….

Thanks for the chat
God bless
Donna