Check your proof texts (Part 1) Sandy Grant

With all due respect Sandy, the Catechism of the Catholic Church never claims to provide a detailed exposition of each text. I would think that the most charitable thing to do would be to refer to a Roman Catholic commentary, or better yet, suggest some to your audience. Otherwise, you’re simply guilty of strawperson representations.

I’d also point out that your proof texts don’t prove anything except for the fact that you don’t, for whatever reason, find the Roman Catholic proof texts convincing. Others may disagree. Still others may find your proof texts in response less than convincing because of the theological framework that either they or yourself are dealing with. So, if for instance you take as your a priori assumption that purgatory does not exist, then it stands to reason that you will honestly believe that no terms used in the Bible actually refer to purgatory.

Ian Carmichael14/07/2008 09:07 AM

OK Sandy, I’ll bite ...

I looked your verses up.

How does Philippians 1:23-24 deny the idea of purgatory?

I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

It doesn’t say depart and immediately be with Christ.

Are you just testing us?

In fact, I’m not sure that any of your four quoted verses strictly deny the idea of purgatory ...

Heb 9:27—isn’t purgatory part of judgement?

Luke 23:43—special case (and what does ‘today’ mean in timeless eternity anyway?)

2 Cor 5:8—is this really defining that there are only two states: in the body or at home with the Lord?

Ian, I realise you are probably just winding me up, and playing devil’s advocate. But good on you for looking up the verses. Quite right. I would have liked to give a brief exposition of each, but it would have made the post even longer and it was already too long.

However,  to take up the Philippians example, Paul numbers two alternatives. It would be odd, indeed, if, when discussing the options for his future, he omitted to mention other additional options. And the two options are:

  1. depart and be with Christ; and
  2. remain in the flesh.

Since departing and being with Christ is better by far, I cannot see any way this allows the possibility of purgatory intervening. At best, it might allow the possibility of what some call ‘soul sleep’. But there is no mention of delay here, let alone the unpleasantness of suffering in purgatory.

I think you have really answered your own question in the parallel passage in 2 Corinthians 5:8: yes, there are only two alternatives upon death (before the general resurrection): in the body or at home with the Lord.

Once we see this, the other references certainly support this understanding.

One might also add the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. Yes, we are cautious from building too much detailed doctrine from the details of such a parable. But it does not appear to leave much room for purification, let alone from crossing one one post-mortem state to another.

All you have for purgatory is an argument from silence.

It’s also been suggested to me by someone else that the Catechism of the Catholic Church never claims to provide a detailed exposition of each text, and that, perhaps to be fairer, I could have referenced a Roman Catholic commentary on the topic.

Perhaps so. I would simply say that the Catechism itself does actually provide fairly extensive exposition on its teachings, and that one would expect the texts cited to be self-evidently demonstrating the contention they are supposed to be proving or supporting.

If the text being cited is not self-evidently supportive, then further additional exposition or reasoning should be provided. Otherwise it continues to make biblical interpretation seem like a mystery.

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